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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Semi-Tarrasch (Read 36660 times)
TimS
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #42 - 02/26/07 at 11:40:30
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HgMan wrote on 05/18/06 at 23:56:20:
The reason I asked is that I'm looking for openings to complement my new (old) interest in the Nimzo-Indian.  I was toying with the Blumenfeld, and then thought I should have something prepared in case White doesn't advance the d-pawn to d5.  Having spent a fair amount of time working through IQPs, I thought it might be worth taking advantage of that work.  So the Semi-Tarrasch looks like it might be worth a look.  It's strange that an opening that occurs relatively frequently at the highest level doesn't have much literature on it (is it in many of the QGD books?)  The line that bothers me:

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 c5 4 Nc3 d5 5 cxd5 Nxd5 6 e4 Nxc3 7 bxc3 cxd4 8 cxd4 Bb4+ 9 Bd2 Bxd2+ 10 Qxd2 0-0

Instead of creating an IQP to attack, I've left White with two pawns in the center of the board.  In practice, the pawns aren't terribly strong or secure, thanks in part to the open c-file and two sets of minor pieces having come off the board, but White seems to do reasonably well in this line.  It's playable for Black, but what plan?  I presume ... b6, ... Bb7, ... Rac8, ... Rfd8, and Q-where? with some pressure on White's pawns...


If you're looking to liven things up and put early pressure on White, it's well worth looking at 5...cxd4 - a Keres favourite
  
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ANDREW BRETT
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #41 - 02/25/07 at 12:46:41
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I think you'd have to be a v. strong defender.

Apart from Polu v Tal in the e4 lines,

both Bc4 and Bd3 in the e3 systems score well for white.

Nothing wrong with defending Queens Gambit Tarketower though !

  
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #40 - 02/25/07 at 10:27:28
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kylemeister wrote on 02/23/07 at 16:18:56:
I have the impression that 6. g3 (which overlaps with the English) is also annoying.  For instance, a recent game in a long theoretical line (Werle-Broekmeulen, in the Dutch league) looked nice for White.  


yes nice but 7...cxd4?! 8.Nxd4 is a  sideline the real test is 7...Be7 8.0-0 0-0 and here 9.Nxd5 or 9.e4
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #39 - 02/23/07 at 16:18:56
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I have the impression that 6. g3 (which overlaps with the English) is also annoying.  For instance, a recent game in a long theoretical line (Werle-Broekmeulen, in the Dutch league) looked nice for White.
  
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #38 - 02/23/07 at 16:18:13
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Check out the Smyslov-Ribli candidates match from 1983 for some nice 6.e3 games
  
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HgMan
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #37 - 02/23/07 at 16:14:26
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Sure, but to be honest, in a dozen or so tries, I have only faced 6.e4.  Maybe nobody studies their IQPs anymore and therefore steers clear.  Through the Semi-Tarrasch move order, 6.e4 seems the more aggressive try, I suppose.

6.e3 is, nevertheless, critical.  It is likely more common through the Caro or, indeed, the Nimzo (both in my repertoire, as it happens).  But surely Black can hold here, too, no?
  

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Markovich
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #36 - 02/23/07 at 14:43:59
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HgMan wrote on 02/18/07 at 16:50:09:
The more I look into the Semi-Tarrasch, the more convinced I am that this opening is very sound for Black.  It's probably not the best bet to play for a win, but after a number of tries in correspondence chess, I am becoming rather confident that I can hold a draw here against stronger opposition.

I have been approaching the Semi-Tarrasch by offering a Nimzo, and then playing 3...d5 after 3.Nf3, in order to avoid 3.Nc3 and 4.Bg5 or 3.cxd5:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e4 Nxc3 7.bxc3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bb4+ 9.Bd2 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 0-0 11.Bc4 Nc6 (I'd like to explore 11...Nd7 a little more here; it looks as though it has some merit) 12.0-0 b6 13.Rad1 Bb7 14.Rfe1 Rc8

The debate then focuses on whether White can push the d-pawn, created an isolated and passed pawn on d5 and exploit that and/or a strong attack on the kingside.  Against correct play, I think White has a difficult time, and also has the difficulty of playing correct moves else this drift into equality much earlier than it needs to.  Black has a difficult defense, but White must play very accurately as well.  If Black can simplify, the endgame doesn't look too bad at all.  All in all, I'm not sure White can exploit those two central pawns the way the position suggest s/he should.  I remember a few other people expressing some interest in the Semi-Tarrasch earlier in this thread.  I think there are some real advantages here:

1.White rarely has something carefully prepared for this since it is generally disparaged.
2.The first dozen moves are very easy and straightforward to play.
3.Black gets very familiar and thematic positions; familiarity has its advantages.
4.In my experience, White tends to overpress.
5.I am pairing this with the Nimzo and Caro, and find a number of similarities in pawn structure and ideas.
6.Not the most swashbuckling of openings, but Black can stand well in the endgame.

My sense is that the Semi-Tarrasch might not be the best bet to play for a win against weaker opposition, but I'm putting together a decent record of holding against stronger opponents...


Isn't 6. e3, reaching positions that are sometimes treated in the Caro books, equally critical for the Semi-Tarrasch?
  

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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #35 - 02/23/07 at 12:21:25
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That comes closer to my rather favourable opinion on the ST, that however may be due entirely to some fantastic games in Suba's 'Dynamic' book.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #34 - 02/18/07 at 16:50:09
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The more I look into the Semi-Tarrasch, the more convinced I am that this opening is very sound for Black.  It's probably not the best bet to play for a win, but after a number of tries in correspondence chess, I am becoming rather confident that I can hold a draw here against stronger opposition.

I have been approaching the Semi-Tarrasch by offering a Nimzo, and then playing 3...d5 after 3.Nf3, in order to avoid 3.Nc3 and 4.Bg5 or 3.cxd5:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e4 Nxc3 7.bxc3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bb4+ 9.Bd2 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 0-0 11.Bc4 Nc6 (I'd like to explore 11...Nd7 a little more here; it looks as though it has some merit) 12.0-0 b6 13.Rad1 Bb7 14.Rfe1 Rc8

The debate then focuses on whether White can push the d-pawn, created an isolated and passed pawn on d5 and exploit that and/or a strong attack on the kingside.  Against correct play, I think White has a difficult time, and also has the difficulty of playing correct moves else this drift into equality much earlier than it needs to.  Black has a difficult defense, but White must play very accurately as well.  If Black can simplify, the endgame doesn't look too bad at all.  All in all, I'm not sure White can exploit those two central pawns the way the position suggest s/he should.  I remember a few other people expressing some interest in the Semi-Tarrasch earlier in this thread.  I think there are some real advantages here:

1.White rarely has something carefully prepared for this since it is generally disparaged.
2.The first dozen moves are very easy and straightforward to play.
3.Black gets very familiar and thematic positions; familiarity has its advantages.
4.In my experience, White tends to overpress.
5.I am pairing this with the Nimzo and Caro, and find a number of similarities in pawn structure and ideas.
6.Not the most swashbuckling of openings, but Black can stand well in the endgame.

My sense is that the Semi-Tarrasch might not be the best bet to play for a win against weaker opposition, but I'm putting together a decent record of holding against stronger opponents...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #33 - 11/21/06 at 12:56:20
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Hello,

The book I metioned, Opening Preparation (1982), has the same information re: 10 ...Be7, or 10...f5 for equal game instead of 10 ...Ne5 played against Lasker (Cambridge Springs 1904). 10 ...f5 is the move Lasker thought he should of played.
                Also, against 6 Nxp, played by Fine in a few games, recommends 6 ...e5 for equality. Not aware of any recent developments in this line.

Bye John S
  
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #32 - 11/21/06 at 01:34:22
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So I open my beloved Taimanov's Damengambit bis Holländisch (1980) once again. The Russian GM writes (apologizes if my translation is poor):

In a game against Lasker (Petersburg 1895/96) Pillsbury took the pawn with the queen (that's why Taimanov calls 5.Bg5 the Pillsbury Variation). ....... The whole variation was considered advantageous for White for a long time. Euwe has shown though, that Black can defend after 10...Be7 (iso 10...Ne5). Also possible is 10...f5.

What are the opinions a quarter of a century later?
  

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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #31 - 11/20/06 at 16:32:22
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The dutch-peruvian with Nf3 is not the best but it's +=
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #30 - 11/20/06 at 14:26:10
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Surely, 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 cxd4 transposes into a Panov Caro...

Doesn't the early Bg5 turn this into a Dutch-Peruvian Gambit (1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 c5)?  And what are the advantages and disadvantages of Nf3 here?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #29 - 11/20/06 at 10:13:30
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Hello,

5.Bg5 was very popular about 100 years ago, there were famous games between Pillsbury and Lasker, amongst others. Fine was playing it in the 30's.

This is probably the most well-known one.
[White "Pillsbury,Harry Nelson"]
[Black "Lasker,Emanuel"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D50"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c5 5.Bg5 cxd4 6.Qxd4 Nc6 7.Bxf6 gxf6 8.Qh4 dxc4
9.Rd1 Bd7 10.e3 Ne5 11.Nxe5 fxe5 12.Qxc4 Qb6 13.Be2 Qxb2 14.0-0 Rc8 15.Qd3 Rc7 16.Ne4 Be7
17.Nd6+ Kf8 18.Nc4 Qb5 19.f4 exf4 20.Qd4 f6 21.Qxf4 Qc5 22.Ne5 Be8 23.Ng4 f5 24.Qh6+ Kf7
25.Bc4 Rc6 26.Rxf5+ Qxf5 27.Rf1 Qxf1+ 28.Kxf1 Bd7 29.Qh5+ Kg8 30.Ne5  1-0

There was a book called Opening preparation, or something like that, which looked at improvements for black. Will try and dig it out.
  
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #28 - 11/20/06 at 09:02:50
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In the semi-Tarrasch 5.cd5 is the automatic move but what about 5.Bg5
It seem interesting to me . The natural 5...cd4 is met by 6.Qd4 Be7 +=

So what 5...dc4 ? or something else ?
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
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